starting fluid WOW

[murd450]

my truck need batt's so it turns over slow some times and i just dont have the money right now to replace them at like $118 abatt for the cheap ones , so i have been using starting fluid the other day i sprayed just a touch of either in the intake and started to crank it it cranked so slow that when one of the pistons fired it buked the starter back and it started to make a grinding noise so i gave up thinking i broke the starter i towed it down to my shop and went to work on changing the starter , but when i looked up (with releaf ) i saw that it had just broken a starter bolt now that is som kind of power between the comp and the torque of the starter it broke a grade 8 starter bolt WOW thats cool and i dident have to in stall a $270 starter:eek:

[TedReminder]

Do not use starting fluid/either. KaBooom.
Ted

[Garth J]

Check the bracket on the foreward end of the starter (away from the flywheel) some people leave it off because its a bear to replace and if it isnt there you will have starter problems...Garth

[surreysinner]

ITS NOT A GAS MOTOR. You cant use starter fluid. That is the stupidest thing i ve ever heard. Sorry

[murd450]

you can use starting fluid on any engine as long as you wate for the glow plugs to go outi work for a major school bus fleet in sullivan county ny and we use it all the time 95% of our busses are diesel , and the frod 6.0l has a problem whith some kind of sensor and when that goes bad the only way to start them is to use either , either is fine as long as you dont over do it

[torque454]

Ive always heard you arent supposed to use anything to help start a diesel, but every can of starting fluid ive ever seen says you can use it in gas or diesel engines, and if it wasnt ok to use in a diesel, these companys would be sued left and right. So with that said, im sure using a starting aid is ok, but you must do it a certain way, such as the way murd450 said.

[hraney]

Problem w/ ether is how much most folks use. We have used it to mount 24.5 truck tires as well, but there is a little common sense that comes into play. I have seen folks all but pour ether in an engine. Might be OK for a low compression gas engine but you'll blow the heads off a diesel or shave the rings off. A lot of diesel tractors I have seen ethered seem to get "addicted" to it. Use it one season then it takes from then on, and in greater amounts.
In the long run you'll be a LOT better off bucking up and getting the batteries. I'd also get the starter checked out, I have seen starter shafts bent from over ethering.

[deerefanatic]

Here's the thing with ether.... Unless you have an in-cab applicator button (some tractors and semi trucks have them) you MUST HAVE two people to use starting fluid correctly......... You start cranking the engine FIRST then give it a few Quick Shots of ether after the engine is rolling..... That way you don't have evaporated ether stalling out the engine when you try to start it and wrecking stuff.......

[grancito]

I agree with deerefanatic, have someone cranking and spray a small amount in, the problem is the high compression will turn the engine backwards and can damage it, there is a warning on the air filter against using starting fluid, but with care it can be used.

[murd450]

speaking of mounting truck tires the proper way to do it is whith a a beed blast tank , my boss tried to mount one whith either and it dident work so he went to spray it a second time not knowing that the inside of the tire still had lit either in it ,:D it wooshed and he dident have eyebrows or the right side of his moustach any more :D lol lol it was so funy to watch and to pick on him , that was a year ago and we still pick on him , and some diesel's if the ip is out of time it will only start on either (but will run on its own ),we have some real rocket scientists herethey think there 4 years in the bisnes is beter than a 20year vet whith ase certs in gas and diesel ,i am certified in diesel (engine repair and diagnosticks) i have the nolage ,but only 4 years exp working on them, i have 20 years on gas and more ase certs than i want to list at this time ,well got to go to work check the forum later

[surreysinner]

I had to mount a 40" bogger with gas one time and it wouldnt go after 3 times so we loaded it up.

It shot the tire 4' of the ground and scared the shit out me.

[deerefanatic]

What's this about mounting tires with ether? Never heard of this before.... :confused:

[Chevylover]

After you put the tire on the rim, some big tires need a little help to fit right on the rims over the "humps". You put a little ether between tire and rim and fire it. The ether give a little "explosion" and due to the fast expansion the tire will hop right on and fits as it should. Often done in cold climates, like alaska, island and so on, if you got no shop nearby.

Cu,
Sven

[grancito]

Here we are more primative, they use gasoline, saw it done once on a truck tire and had to do it on one of my pickup tires when the air would not push it onto the rim. Scary!!

[jifaire]

... but do us all a favour and keep the video camera rolling while you do it, OK? The rest of us want to watch when you blow your own ass off.

These engines have 21.5-1 compression (a fair bit different than your old Massey-Fergusson 82), NO compression release, glow plugs that automatically re-engage depending on ambient temp, and Ricardo-Comet precup combustion chambers.

Ether is a just-plain-BAD-idea on these. That's why the BIG WARNING DECALS are on them.

You're worried about a piddly little starter? I know guys who took out Connecting rods, broke cranks, and cracked main journals by using ether.

Starters are cheap.

Buy some friggin batteries before you lose your engine, OK?

[9365manual]

Speaking of tractors and either. I once got on my uncles Oliver 1850 to started it. I couldn't figure out why the starter wouldn't work--OOPS that was the either button. Hit the starter!!!, thought all hell was coming lose. For a moment I thougth maybe I should start running before I got hit by some srapnel. I guess it turned out alright, never heard that he had to overhaul it after that!!

[jam93]

here is what is funny about this post he said that he did not have money to buy two batt for $118 advanced auto parts has batt for these motors $80 a pair 3 year full waranty but anyway had enough money to take truck down to a shop and was looking at a new starter $$$$$ if you had money for the starter you had money for the batt to begin with and the problem with using starter fluid with one person is you tend to use to much so then it starts to puddle in the motor that is why it is not good but use it as you are turning the motor over and it is fine.:)

[deerefanatic]

Well, in sticking up for him... He probably didn't have the money for a starter either.... But without a starter, you can't use the truck.... With weak batteries, you can use the truck, with the help of some................




































ether! :D :D

When it comes down to it, we all have more money for things we HAVE to do than things we'd LIKE to do............

[JD_countryboy]

Well, in sticking up for him... He probably didn't have the money for a starter either.... But without a starter, you can't use the truck.... With weak batteries, you can use the truck, with the help of some................


ether! :D :D

When it comes down to it, we all have more money for things we HAVE to do than things we'd LIKE to do............

Very well put. Very true. I'm sure we have all been in that position a time or two. But I strongly avise against using either in any IDI glow pug engine. Or in any engine with an intake air heater. Heard about a guy who blew the intake off a cummins in a super cold weather climate once cause he used either and the intake air heater ignited it! YIKES!!!!!!!

[Garth J]

WD40 works too and not as dry

[deerefanatic]

Not the new WD40...... It's been reformulated to be non-flamible.....

[murd450]

i dident take it to a shop i took it to my shop! i had to borow the money for the starter and when i dident need it i returned the money and the advance in liberty NY told me the cheapest batts for my truck were $118 each , i work on 6.5 deisel's every day ill get bats as soon as one of our fleet vehicals needs them ,we change them on time (every 3 years ) i got 2 that need them next week , i have been in the game a long time i doo allot of things you arnt saposed to do

[jifaire]

i have been in the game a long time i doo allot of things you arnt saposed to do

Hey, knock yourself out, pal. All we're saying is that using starter fluid on a 6.5 TD is a good way to wreck an engine. That's why they put those big warning signs on them, insisting that you NOT do that.

I imagine the GM guys who put them there probably have been in the game for a long time, too.

For that matter, some of us have been wrenching on these specific engines longer than 4 or 5 years, and working on diesels in general since we were kids, so you might not be all that much smarter than us, after all.

The 6.5 doesn't like ether. Period. There seems to be no shortage of people who think they're smarter than the GM engineers and go ahead anyway.

Bad things seem to happen to them with amazing regularity. The best part is the look on their faces, like "but I didn't know". Now you do.

[turbostorm]

Just put 2 new bats in last week. The truck was sitting for about 2 weeks in temps around -20 C . I had a radar detector pluged in but didn't think that should kill the 2 bats that i had put in two months earlier. But anyways they froze and swelled up went to Wal-Mart got 2 new 1000 ca 800cca for $98 a piece.

[torque454]

Got two new walmart batteries in mine too, 1000amp, $70 each. They seem to croak alot, but they have a 3 year free replacement warranty which starts over if you get a new battery under warranty so even tho you replace them frequently, you basically get new batteries free, over and over.

[JD_countryboy]

autozone 850cca, id have to double check, $85 unless you know an employee, could be cheaper lol, 3 year free 7 year prorated waranty. some have trouble with them, but i now have 4 of them in three vehicles, no problems in oldest 2, 5 years old. Friend has walmart batts in his burb, replacin at least 1 a year, all under warranty tho.

[murd450]

i wasent bad mouthing any one ! and every body has there own way of doing things ,

[hraney]

Murd450,
One thing I have learned since getting into some of these forums, sometimes it just doesn't pay to tell everything you know.
Not knocking anything anyone else has said, or anything you have said...but sometimes it is just better to stay quiet. Have I used ether on my diesels? Yep. Sometimes with less than desirable results. Most of it boils down to technique and experience and necessity. Seems a lot of stuff is safe as long an I am doing it, but not for anyone else.:p
Keep your chin up and don't let this stuff bother you. I have watched more than one discussion forum spiral into personal attacks and petty backbiting and completely lose sight of the forum's original intent.
Oh, and by the way... am I also guilty of doing just that? Yep and once again, sometimes with less than desirable results.
Gee.... all this almost qualifies as a rant, doesn't it?
No offense anyone.

[deerefanatic]

Yep, that's the truth!!!

[jifaire]

I don't see where there's any personal attacks in the above posts... but I also don't see the point in beating around the bush here.

Can you use ether in your 6.5? Yep. It ain't recommended, 'cause they have an annoying tendancy to break when you do it, but hey, it's your truck.

I've used ether before, too, but never in my 6.5TD. Just because I've got years of Diesel experience doesn't mean I should go ahead and try it out like I'm immune from bad things happening, and therefore I should not give anybody else that advice.

The sticker under the hood says NO ETHER. If it said "Don't use ether unless you've been in the game a long time", or "don't use ether unless new batteries are too expensive", then I could understand agreeing with this.

Whaddya want, advice or permission? The purpose of posting stuff like this on a forum is to solicit opinions; you don't want 'em, or don't want to follow 'em, don't ask. That's like asking "Can I run 20 lbs boost and 15 lbs of propane in my engine?" and then being mad when people ask if you have an explosion fetish.

[grancito]

When my glow plugs burned out and weren't available here, I was going to add ether to the fuel, that would not cause damage from pre-ignition. However a friend here uses it to start his Ford every day. The USA has to protect against law suits for mal use of things. I saw a news post once for the most stupid warnings on products, for a toy, it had "warning this toy moves when used" another, "do not use this rectal thermometer in the mouth after using in the rectum" you like those?

[torque454]

"CAUTION! Coffee, Tea, and Hot Chocolate are served VERY hot" :) :D (Really!? I always thought coffee, tea, and hot chocolate were served so cold its almost frozen! [sarcasm])

[murd450]

hey i wasent mad ! i was just saying every body dose things diferant . i do allot of things that the warning labels say you shouldent , there is a law (at least here in ny ) that says you cant remove a engine frome a vehical and put in a biger or older one , my monte was originaly a 4.3l v6 whith cali emissions now it has a 350.040 over making just shy of 500hp whith no emissinos ,is it right , depends on who you talk to ,is it cool , well i think it is . and those warnings arnt put there buy the desiners they are put there buy hi priced laywers i mean come on how may of you put on youre safty glasses when in the shop , you know jus about every tool says to where safty glasses , even my razer scraper ,or a simpel philips screw driver,and for those of you whith atvs the warnig says to ride whith care ,i like to pull whealies on mine hell whith the warning ,is it desined to be abel to do that , of corse but the warning the lawers put on there clear the company of any wrong doing if you get hurt doing it , and i have even used either on my atv and my race car (choke les racing carb) and at the begining of this hole post i was just sharing some cool info (of corse i no the warnings do i care about warnings NA i know in the back of my mind that it could hapen but it is still beter than walking to work at 5am in the middel of winter

[murd450]

hey i wasent mad ! i was just saying every body dose things diferant . i do allot of things that the warning labels say you shouldent , there is a law (at least here in ny ) that says you cant remove a engine frome a vehical and put in a biger or older one , my monte was originaly a 4.3l v6 whith cali emissions now it has a 350.040 over making just shy of 500hp whith no emissinos ,is it right , depends on who you talk to ,is it cool , well i think it is . and those warnings arnt put there buy the desiners they are put there buy hi priced laywers i mean come on how may of you put on youre safty glasses when in the shop , you know jus about every tool says to where safty glasses , even my razer scraper ,or a simpel philips screw driver,and for those of you whith atvs the warnig says to ride whith care ,i like to pull whealies on mine hell whith the warning ,is it desined to be abel to do that , of corse but the warning the lawers put on there clear the company of any wrong doing if you get hurt doing it , and i have even used either on my atv and my race car (choke les racing carb) and at the begining of this hole post i was just sharing some cool info (of corse i no the warnings do i care about warnings NA i know in the back of my mind that it could hapen but it is still beter than walking to work at 5am in the middel of winter and i got new batts yesterday ,and dident even need to plug it in 20 F

[deerefanatic]

Cool.... It's amazing what good batts can do..... Especially in a diesel......

Yah, it comes down to this: Ether CAN be used on ANY diesel if the user is:

A: Smart enough to take precautions first (unhook grid heaters, glowplugs, etc)
B: Administer correctly
C: Fix problem that causes need of Ether in a timely manner........

[jifaire]

i do allot of things that the warning labels say you shouldent

Have you ever heard of the Darwin Awards?


... and those warnings arnt put there buy the desiners they are put there buy hi priced laywers i mean come on how may of you put on youre safty glasses when in the shop , you know jus about every tool says to where safty glasses ...

I wear safety glasses when using tools all the time. If you don't, and you lose your eyesight, then you go get one of those high-priced lawyers you are castigating and sue somebody, ANYBODY, so you can hire a nurse to help you find the potty, just like millions of other people who are too arrogant to take care of themselves and figure that the rest of us should pay higher fees because of their lawsuits.


and for those of you whith atvs the warnig says to ride whith care ,i like to pull whealies on mine hell whith the warning ,is it desined to be abel to do that , of corse but the warning the lawers put on there clear the company of any wrong doing if you get hurt doing it ...

Same thing as above. The labels are on there because some people think that nothing is ever their fault, and refuse to take responsibility for their own stupidity. Then they get a lawyer and sue the company for selling them the ATV in the first place... the majority of personal injury lawsuits are from people just like you, and the rest of us pay higher insurance fees because of it. I, for one, am tired of paying higher prices because you can't read the label.


... of corse i no the warnings do i care about warnings NA i know in the back of my mind that it could hapen but it is still beter than walking to work at 5am in the middel of winter and i got new batts yesterday ,and dident even need to plug it in 20 F

Seems to me that if it DID happen (wrecking your engine), you would have to walk to work at 5 am in the middle of winter... and it wouldn't be your engine's fault, or the ether's fault, but YOUR fault.

Damage caused by using ether isn't a cumulative thing... it's Russian Roulette... you could wreck a crank or web the very first time you try it. Posting on a forum like this that "it's OK, as long as you don't overdo it", or "it's OK, if you do it right", or "it's OK, but only occasionally" is like saying "I'll only stick it in a little bit".

Somebody is going to read that advice, assume (mistakenly) that you have some vague clue what you're doing, and blow up their engine. Because YOU said it was OK. Tell me, can they then sue YOU for giving bad advice?

The only good advice in this case is Don't use Ether in an IDI engine. The 6.5TD is such an engine.

Glad you got batteries. As we told you, that IS the correct solution to your problem.

(on edit) This has me so bugged, I've been asking a few 6.5 TD experts... The general concensus I'm getting is that this is a 2-man job. As was indicated earlier, small squirts, while cranking, after the glow plugs have gone out (and assuming they don't re-light), ether is workable. Still not real safe, but workable. As a one-man operation, it's dangerous.

As Harry Callahan would say, "... the question is, do you feel lucky?"

[murd450]

i dont sue any body if i blow up my own engine it is my problem ,just like in drag racing if im in the burn out box and i know i got a week trany , and it slips while going into 2nd and blows the motor up at 10000rpm whos falt is
DUH it mine ,and i know people that put on safty glasses befor they enter a shop do i do it he he , NO ! do i care no , should i maybe ,is it my fault if some thing hapens to me YEP! is there any one to sue ? i guess but in the end it is my fualt ! when i wrecked my 3 whealer broke my ankel and my knee did i sue some one , HELL NO! atvs have beten me down and i still come back for more , my fault or the companys fault , MINE ! i have broken my neck,middel back ,and lumbar in 4 places all together di it sue NOi have 6 disks pinching my spinal cord and i have to live whith the fackt that it was my fault , but there is no body to sue (and in ny i could have sued the property oner but what good would that do anybody , so you want to talk about whos fault some thing is ? DUH !i am man enuf to admit that i aint right in allot of things that i do , i just dont care ,how much worse could it get life sucks ,take chances ,and dont look back!if i blow it up ill just put in the 454 i was going to put in the race car! (some of those ingeries where frome when i fliped my pro street nova going 145 mph 13 times down the midel of the drag strip) but still no hard felings (starting fluid says right on it safe for all gas and DIESEL engines !!! lol lol lol lol lol

[jifaire]

I'm speechless.

You're right. Whatever you say. Fine.

Have a nice day!

[TedReminder]

Whatever you do, I mean anything, please shoot video. I want to see something blow up on U Tube.
Ted

[murd450]

dude trashin cars is fun check out what i did to a tercell at cardomain.com, search member murd450

[murd450]

opps , my ranger page on there!!!:cool:

[wtesta]

you know what you are such a fool i hope you ruin your engine i guess you cant read the label "DO NOT USE ON DIESEL ENGINES PERIOD" ONLY FOR GASOLINE ENGINES.

[Chevylover]

Oh no, not again !

Sure, you're right, but it is an endless discussionabout using or not. We all know, that there is a big sticker inside the cab and GM forbid it, but everyone could do what he/she wants with their own things/trucks/cars/etc.


The only thing YOU have done wrong, is to start as a newbie in a forum.
Not a good beginning - with the first posting. Hope next time will be better.

Cu,
Sven

[murd450]

aint it fun , eithe ROCKS !!!!!!! lol !!!!! all winter with either and it still runs strong , it actualy has a (my or may not be dealer instaled) GMC either start. I found the buton in the dash and i put it back in and put a new botel in and it worked and right on the either inj unit it says GM!!!

[Sundance]

A mechanic I know swears by WD-40 as starting fluid for diesels.......

Is he nuts??? Warped?? or both??

[BNTune]

murd450
Great topic,And thanks to every one else with there input about starting flud. There's a lot of Can Do's and Don't use the Can(starting fluid). If using can have other's help. Alway's use a Video recorder.:D

[murd450]

i dont se why some people get so pissy and act like babys !!!it isent there truck !!!! and with the either start you can crankit and then hit the button !!!
AND IT IS MINE AND ILL BRAKE MY STUFF IF I WANT TO !!!!!:cool:

[Oldsmoke]

I've used it for years in various diesels but not on my 6.5. Many farm tractors used to come from the factory with ether assist starting built right in. The new tractors just use glo-plugs and intake heaters. It is very effective at getting a diesel going in cold weather but can be quite violent and I have heard of people damaging their motors with it.

The 6.5 has a pretty high compression ratio at 20.5/1 so that is probably why GM does not recommend it. With the glo-plug system adding a little heat to the equation you are living dangerously.:o

[murd450]

well you have to wate for the glow plugs to go out ,any diesel with glow plugs or an intake heater will have the no starting fluid warning , it is so you dont blow ure self up ,the glow plugs will ignight the either ,and as it realy wolnt hurt the engine right away it will melt the glow plugs and then next time you go to change them they will be bent over and most times thy will brake on the way out and the end stays in the cilender and pokes a hole in the piston ,i have a switch on the dash that turns of the power to the glowplug module so that after the inital plug cycel i can turn them off so that they dont come on while the plugs are on ! i was told buy a IH factory tech that as long as you make shure the pugs are off the eiter wolnt hurt the engine , he allso uses it as a diagnostic asistant ! if the engine is geting fule it will try to start , is you spray it and the engie binds up it isent geting fule :D

[murd450]

and right on the can i says SAFE FOR ALL GSOLINE AND DIESEL ENGINS!!!!

[Oldsmoke]

I have heard of people using WD-40 as a safer alternative. Can it be used without turning off the glo-plugs? It would be nice to have something for emergency use sometimes when you get stranded somewhere where you can't plug in the block heater.

That diesel just won't light off without a little volatility enhancement.

[murd450]

i actualy think mine is out of time ! im prity shure its had a ip done ,even when its warm some tims it takes some cranking ,and even when it dosent it will smoke when it starts (black) !! i wish i knew some one with a tech2 so i could tweek the timing a bit !:cool:

[huntfishcamp]

My dad used WD-40 sometimes. I dont know exactly how but I have seen him do it many times. He's been a diesel mechanic all his life and grew up working on my granddad's farm equipment and its all the used back then.
When you are using ether spray it on teh filter, not directly into the engine. I watched one guy spray it directly into the turbo on his Ford.

[jifaire]

well you have to wate for the glow plugs to go out ,any diesel with glow plugs or an intake heater will have the no starting fluid warning , it is so you dont blow ure self up ,the glow plugs will ignight the either ,and as it realy wolnt hurt the engine right away it will melt the glow plugs and then next time you go to change them they will be bent over and most times thy will brake on the way out and the end stays in the cilender and pokes a hole in the piston ,i have a switch on the dash that turns of the power to the glowplug module so that after the inital plug cycel i can turn them off so that they dont come on while the plugs are on ! i was told buy a IH factory tech that as long as you make shure the pugs are off the eiter wolnt hurt the engine , he allso uses it as a diagnostic asistant ! if the engine is geting fule it will try to start , is you spray it and the engie binds up it isent geting fule :D

Aside from the obvious illegibility, that there is the biggest pile of horsecrap I think anybody has ever tried to sell me.

There are so many mechanical inconsistencies in that paragraph, I don't even know where to start.

--The warning is not so you "won't blow ure self up", it is so the ether will not fire on the compression stroke too far before TDC and kick back, wrecking a rod.

--ether will not melt the glow plugs and there's no way that "the next time you go to change them they will be bent over and brake (sic) on the way out". As a matter of fact, burning ether has a lower flame-front temperature than burning diesel at 22:1.

--you have a switch on the dash so that "they (glow plugs) don't come on while the plugs are on"? What sense does that make? The switch is to shut the glow plugs off, period, to decrease the likelihood that the air-ether mixture can ignite pre-TDC and bend conn rods.

--our trucks burn fuel, not fule. "if the engine is geting fule it will try to start , is you spray it and the engie binds up it isent geting fule"

I call BS. Ether igniting too early will alter the timing of the initial ignition event, causing kick-back (what you so eloquently describe as binding engine). Since you appear to perhaps understand gassers, think of it as a vastly increased dwell in the ignition event, with the timing advanced about 10 degrees more. You do that with your Monte Carlo and it'll 'bind up' too.

--If you have any issues with any of this, you can give Walt a call... this is his forum, after all, and he will surely want to make sure you aren't disseminating potentially damaging information on it. I'm sure he would want to take the time to make sure the information was correct.

I tell you what, Murd... if you want to wreck your IDI 6.5TD engine, have at it. Just don't expect those of us who are better mechanics to sit around and let you tell rookies to wreck theirs, too.

But hey... have a nice day, hear?

[JD_countryboy]

and right on the can i says SAFE FOR ALL GSOLINE AND DIESEL ENGINS!!!!

Do you believe everything you read? A little common sence goes a long way.

[PPDK9]

When I attended Wyo Tech about 10 years ago, ALL of the instructors warned very strongly against the use of ether. Ether can stretch the head bolts, cause power loss, melt holes in pistons/turbos, and all of the other problems the other guys were talking about. I have seen people that say that the use of ether is alright wind up having to use ether all of the time to start thier eingines, no matter what the ambient temp. But like you said it's your truck.