Hard Start / White Smoke

[njdevi11]

Ever since I got the engine running it was difficult to start, (10 seconds on glow plugs) it would usually sputter for a few seconds, then i'll go 5 more seconds on the glow plugs again, and start it again, and eventually with a little bit of throttle it will start on maybe the third try. After it starts I get a massive amount of white smoke until it warms up (maybe about a minute or two). Once its warm a 5 seconds on the glow plugs and it starts right up and idles fine.

My question is this, Is anything wrong? should it be that difficult to start in this mildly cold weather (30*-40*F). Should it smoke that much on start? I have low sulfer diesel and an antigel in the tank.

Possible diagnosis:
(1) Injectors are on their way out
(2) Injection pump needs a rebuild
(3) Timing is off
(4) Compression/head gasket

I feel like im kind of a hypochondriac when it comes to problems with like this, i always plan for the worse and hope for the best. Anybody else have any ideas?

[sixnickel]

The first thing I would check is the cold advance. The IP has 2 spade terminals one on top and one on the side. The top one is the fuel solenoid(shut down) the one on the side is the cold advance.The next cold start before you glow and crank it take a jumper wire and put 12 volts to the cold advance terminal. If it starts and runs better let me know and I will tell you how to wire it up. As the engine warms up take the jumper wire off and on, the diesel cackle should change! Let me know if it doesn't work either, we will figure it out.

[njdevi11]

Sweet!

I actually was going to try to tweek the advancement up a little bit, I read that around 80-100k the timing change gets stretched and advancing it 1-3* (basically the width of the timing mark) will adjust for that. (just so were clear this is the mechanical pump not the electronic one right?)

Ill try it tonight or tomorrow, depending on when i get home. My neighbors don't really appreciate me starting my 6.2 at night especially since the exhaust is dumped out from the turbo.

[sixnickel]

DB2 mechanical pump remember I am a old 6.2 guy from way back!!

[njdevi11]

Found the wire, it was disconnected from the cold advance but it was still connected to the kick up solenoid (which i think is pretty much useless with the throttle return spring I have on there now). Then I traced it back to the cold start switch. Then i traced it back to the end of the main harness coming off the engine, it was just hanging there disconected.

I assume that needs to be wired into ignition correct? Or should I just wire it into a switch so I can control it manually?

Now i just need to make sure i didnt fry my starter on sunday when I tried starting it. It turned it over for five or six seconds at a time in like 3 or 4 sets with a few seconds in between, then it just stopped. That cant be enough to fry the starter can it?

It might be a dead battery, it might be the solenoid, i just haven't looked into it. I didn't feel like waiting around for 4 hours while my batteries charged. I tried jumping out the starter solenoid today and it didn't kick but it did spark. Ill have to get a friend to help me diagnose it tomorrow.

Oh i almost forgot:
The injection pump has already been advanced. it was about 3* or 4* towards the driver's side.

[sixnickel]

That wire going no ware goes to 12 volt on with ignition. The the temp switch in the right head opens at about 120-130 degrees to shut off the cold advance. So with that, engine cold, ign. on 12 v going into switch, 12v coming out, 12v into cold advance and high idle solenoid. At about 120-130 deg. switch opens cold advance and high idle solenoid shut off. The idle drops and the diesel cackel quites down. Keep me posted!!

[njdevi11]

Another one bites the dust.

I just killed another optima battery. well both of them really, I had an optima yellow top and an old interstate i used to start my jeep. last sunday it stopped turning so i left it on the charger over night. the amperage was low when i got there so i figured it was charged. i tried to crank it, the voltage went below 6. I turned the headlights on, the voltage dropped to 6 again. Good thing Ive got a 12month warrenty so ill stop by the interstate guy tomorrow and pick up a new one.

[njdevi11]

I stopped by the interstate guy today and the optima is still good 100% charge. He said it might be a bad ground. One more thing to look into when I get home tonight. Kinda funny that the ground wire would get corroded and die just like that, but who knows. Ive got tons of extra 2 ga wire from my old job so ill make a new cable, find a good ground on the block.

[njdevi11]

Finally figured out what my starter problem is, i fused the starter solenoid so it wasn't firing. So i got a replacement at RS Strauss for $30.

I hooked up the cold advance line and hit the glow plugs for 5 seconds and it started right up, no hesitation, and ran even better then before. Thanks 1,000,000.

[sixnickel]

That's great glad I could help . I guess the old fart is good for something!!

[njdevi11]

I just went to show a friend how easy my CJ started now that i have the cold advance wire hooked up. However, it didnt start so easy this time. In fact It didn't start. I got a few seconds of studdering, 3 or 4 times and a little bit of white smoke (not enough to make me clear the garage like before) I checked the cold advance wire and it was hot with ignition on. I checked that my glow plugs were heating they were.

It was 40-50*F outside when i started last time and it didn't hesitate one bit and it didn't smoke much at all.

Today it's 25*F and snowing here. I is it possible that the difference in temperature could make that much difference? Tomorrow ill try putting it on the block heater for a few minutes to see if that helps.

More info:
I'm running shell rotella 15w-40.
I have the turbo installed and a 3" downpipe (thats the end of it). I haven't turned up the injection pump yet because I haven't gotten the boost and egt gauges I ordered. I took the 6.5 boost sensor out and did not clamp the turbo to the plenum so i don't build much boost. [is the turbo creating more drag on startup and since i didnt turn the IP up its harder to start?]

I have a 35gpm Fuel pump at 7psi mounted close to the engine. It was running fine yesterday with the pump.

Yesterday when i went for a little drive i started going up my driveway and everthing stopped dead. The positive battery terminal fell out of the battery post, Just to get it into the garage i clamped it under the jumper cable im using to connect the dual batteries. I didn't fix this yet. 2 batteries 1600cca [is it possible im not getting a good connection to the starter and delivering enough amps to crank it hard enough?]

[Chevylover]

I just went to show a friend how easy my CJ started now that i have the cold advance wire hooked up. However, it didnt start so easy this time. In fact It didn't start. I got a few seconds of studdering, 3 or 4 times and a little bit of white smoke (not enough to make me clear the garage like before) I checked the cold advance wire and it was hot with ignition on. I checked that my glow plugs were heating they were.

It was 40-50*F outside when i started last time and it didn't hesitate one bit and it didn't smoke much at all.

Today it's 25*F and snowing here. I is it possible that the difference in temperature could make that much difference? Tomorrow ill try putting it on the block heater for a few minutes to see if that helps.



The manual of my truck says to use the block heater below tempertures of 32° F / 0° C so this could be the/one reason.

Cu,
Sven

[njdevi11]

Thanks, thats definitely a possibility. But here's some more info:

I had the engine on the block heater today (35*F) for about 10-15 minutes. I made sure that the cold advance solenoid inside the pump was firing by unpluging the cold start switch and listening for it to click, it did. It took more then a few tries to start it but eventually it came to life. I let the engine run for about 20 minutes and it got good and warm and started putting out some good power. It was running great! I checked to see if there was voltage on the cold advance and there still was. It looks like the switch is not functioning and it stuck on. Anyway I pulled the plug off the switch to turn the cold-advance circuit off and the sound didnt change that much, but i did almost immediately notice some white puffs of smoke that looked like some cylinder(s) is/are missing. I plugged the switch back in and the white puffs went away and the engine chugged a long.

Also I should take this time to mention that my fuel heater/filter/water sensor is currently just a fuel filter, I have not had the chance to hook up the heater yet.

My thoughts.
(1) My timing is very retarded, the cold-advance is correcting this. I need to adjust a few more degrees.
(2) Since the timing is that far off and its already been advanced 3*-4* it might be a good time to replace the timing set.

BTW: after it was warm it fired right up with no glow plugs. That was beautiful.

[sixnickel]

Move the timing mark towards the left (drivers side) about a strong 1/32 of a inch. The fuel heater should not be a factor with todays temps.

[njdevi11]

Thats what I thought. Ill try it tomorrow, I have a date with a pint of Guinness tonight. Think it might work better if I go for a light 1/16" of an inch ;) ?

What about replacing the timing set? For $60 I think it might be worth it.

[sixnickel]

strong 1/32 light 1/16 same thing. Bump the timing and see what happens. stay sober!!!!!!!!!!

[njdevi11]

I advanced the timing 1/32~1/16 today (that was a joke sixnickel [hey, i just got your handle: six and a nickel is five...six five]) Take a look at the attached image of the adjustment I made, The black line was drawn straight across the two surfaces before i started.

It didn't seem like it helped much, It started and sputtered for a few seconds a bunch of times then it stalled out. I'm starting to think this might be a problem with the fuel pump I am using. It didn't seem like I had this much trouble when I had the mechanical pump installed. The pump I'm using is rated for 7psi 35gpm. I Have a 6.5 pump that I haven't gotten around to installing, maybe ill try that this weekend to see if it helps.

Worst case, On my to do list is to make a banks style fuel pump plate with the oil return so I can go back to the mechanical fuel pump.

Any other ideas?

[sixnickel]

You might have air getting into the system. Get a piece of clear vinyl or plastic hose and put it on the return line from the IP to the fuel return.( small hose that runs from the top of the pump return line over the timing cover) With the engine running look for air bubbles in the hose. If you have them figure out where they are coming from make them go away! Also make sure there are no restrictions in the return line going back to the fuel tank. A restriction will retard timing. Who knows if GM didn't bump the6.2 displacement to 6.5 I could be sixduce!!!!!

[njdevi11]

I replaced the crappy percolator fuel pump I got a pepboys with the OEM unit. The engine fired right up. I waited a few seconds and disconnected the cold advance and the engine sputtered for a few seconds and almost stalled until I reconnected the cold advance. I think I hit the sweet spot. It sounds like a diesel now instead of a worked gasser. Ill let it warm up again this weekend and see if that cold advance switch opens up, otherwise I need to get a new one. Any idea what its called? I looked on rock auto and all i see is a glow plug inhibit switch. Does this drive the same circuit? I should probably find my haynes manual on the engine but I enjoy talking with you guy's so much.

Hey, "six-deuce" would be an awesome pinstripe!